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adil_909 · #16 (**permalink**) 07-17-2012, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

This goes down as one of your worst post ever....Ever....EVER!!!!!

Oh jeez please.

I asked you one question (I assume a logical query) and you gave me two paragraphs FULL of purely refined, export quality BS. Well Thanks a lot!!

oh i see, whatever you disagree with becomes BS. like it or not, i've explained very clearly why this series is occuring and what we have to gain from it. in the current circumstances with how much power BCCI has, india was never going to agree to play in UAE first. this is the first step, and after that it will be our turn. learn to be patient and understand ground realities. be practical in your wishes. but who am i kidding, you're the guy who didn't even want money from india when the pakistan floods happened in 2010 even though millions of people were in despeate need of help and money, so why am i asking you to take a practical stance?

AHMAD\ · #17 (**permalink**) 07-17-2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

oh i see, whatever you disagree with becomes BS. like it or not, i've explained very clearly why this series is occuring and what we have to gain from it. in the current circumstances with how much power BCCI has, india was never going to agree to play in UAE first. this is the first step, and after that it will be our turn. learn to be patient and understand ground realities. be practical in your wishes. but who am i kidding, you're the guy who didn't even want money from india when the pakistan floods happened in 2010 even though millions of people were in despeate need of help and money, so why am i asking you to take a practical stance?

Nope, you are implying that. I am disagreeing with your opinion not calling it BS. You can have your opinion, I am fine with it. Your response to the query is what I called BS...which I still say that two paragraphs were total BS. You tried to answer in a very unconvincing manner for may be few words, rest was all circling around BS. I feel like I was reading statement from some PPP's 3rd class politician in Kashif Abbasi's show.

few questions again:

1) Why can India not play in UAE when ENG, SA, AUS and NZ can play there?

2)We have taken the first step...fine, appreciate the efforts of PCB. Now please can you explain what kind of benefit PCB will be having from this? Can you guarantee me that BCCI will abide by law and do a return tour in UAE? Can you 100% guarantee that (with history going against you)?

3)Can you explain me how is this series financially sound for PCB? Practically, I don't see it happening. The only area I see where players can make "JUST A LITTLE MORE" money is through domestic products advertisements....that's it. Nothing from broadcasting rights, whatsoever.
PCB is not getting anything out of it.

4)I am only asking to stay on Principles and be honest with self instead of dropping the shalwar in front of BCCI everytime. Don't make it sound like there is no choice, like a Rape victim asking to get raped.

I am not amnesic, I don't have memory lapse. I still remember how Pakistani players were disgraced in IPL. How BCCI intentionally put efforts to isolate Pakistan from cricket all together. And how BCCI played it part in removing WC 2011 venues from UAE. and there is a long long history beyond that too.

I don't think BCCI is sincere this time either. Unless you prove it to me otherwise. The only reason why BCCI is interested in having this series is the "BIG 3" which I mentioned above. Pakistan Cricket is not going to get anything out of it, forget PCB getting any appreciation from world on this matter.

If no cricket was happening with India then so be it. We had seen one of the best Pakistan team developed by not playing INDIA in 90s, a team full of superstars. Even today, we have improved without them and we are still striding forward under the most challenging circumstances, while they have dropped. I don't know how playing against INDIA will positively impact us. Pakistan gets better after playing AUS, ENG or SA, as is evident from history where is IND come in the equation???

AND THANKS FOR BRINGING POLITICS IN THE DISCUSSION. I WAS EXPECTING YOU TO DO THAT.

adil_909 · #18 (**permalink**) 07-17-2012, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

1) Why can India not play in UAE when ENG, SA, AUS and NZ can play there?

india can absolutely play in the UAE, and they will. who has said they cannot? they point is that they do not want to take the first step. like afridi said after the world cup, pakistanis have big hearts. we are the ones that are saying "ok fine, it was our turn to host, but we understand that india-pakistan cricketing ties are important. you can host first because even though its our turn, it resumes ties between our nations and we know that we will out our chance next time."

2)We have taken the first step...fine, appreciate the efforts of PCB. Now please can you explain what kind of benefit PCB will be having from this? Can you guarantee me that BCCI will abide by law and do a return tour in UAE? Can you 100% guarantee that (with history going against you)?

nobody can 100% guarantee anything. i cannot even 100% guarantee that this series will go ahead, much less a future series between india and pakistan. if something like the mumbai attakcks or something like that were to happen again, then there is no chance of this series happening, or future series either. HOWEVER, if things continue to progress the way they have been, and relations continue to soften, then there is every reason to beleive that india will tour uae for a pakistan home series. zaka ashraf would have weighed the pros and cons of playing a series with india, he wouldn't play a series in which, like you've said we are getting no money, if there wasn't something in it for us. and what's in it for us is the future prospect of hosting india, and all the benefits we have to gain from that. advertising, broadcast fees, ticket sales, etc. india vs pakistan is the cash cow of modern cricket, and we are playing this series because we want a piece of the pie at a future date.

3)Can you explain me how is this series financially sound for PCB? Practically, I don't see it happening. The only area I see where players can make "JUST A LITTLE MORE" money is through domestic products advertisements....that's it. Nothing from broadcasting rights, whatsoever.
PCB is not getting anything out of it.

see above post. you are thinking in the short term and i am thinking in the long term. your argument is that in the next 6 months, we are not making money from this series. but my argument is that if you look one year ahead, we will make millions of rupees from this series because it will directly lead to pakistan hosting the next series in uae, england, saf, etc.

4)I am only asking to stay on Principles and be honest with self instead of dropping the shalwar in front of BCCI everytime. Don't make it sound like there is no choice, like a Rape victim asking to get raped.

it's not about rape victim asking to be raped. we are not getting raped by playing this series. like i said, you have to look at the long term benefit. this series is a stepping stone towards normalizing relations and then once we are hosting the series, we will get rewarded.

there you go, i've answered your questions to the best of my ability. i cannot guarantee anything, but i am making the best conclusion based on in the information i have in front of me. i know zaka ashraf is a smart man who has made good decisions for pakistan cricket. if he's been busting his balls off for a series with india, well there must be a reason behind that. it's not like he wants to take his family to a vacation in delhi. and based on what i can see, i have interpreted that this series is occuring in good faith that we'll get a chance to host a series soon and then benefit from what that brings. you can say we have nothing to gain, but from my perspective, we have a ton to gain. not only financially, but also from the players perspective. india vs pakistan is one of the biggest rivalries in sports, and any player worth their salt would want to prove themselves in these sorts of contests. these are the games in which people make a name for themselves. even though i hate wahab riaz and think he's massively overrated, i will never forget his 5-for vs india in the semis for as long as i live, just because it was vs india in such a high profile game.

now ahmad that i've answered your questions, i hope you will seriously answer one of mine. i'm not attacking you or anyone else but i just want to understand.

you and cyborg especially seem to take a huge issue with this series. you think it's wrong, that we are getting raped, and you don't want it to happen. so then i'd like to know how you can justify what will inevitably happen in 6 months: you'll be swept up by india vs pakistan fever and will be thumping your chest cheering for pakistan to crush india. if you are having such an issue with this series, then don't you think you should not watch the series, or get excited about it? should you not boycott the series in principle? i am not attacking, i just want to understand how you reconcile this issue in your mind. if you have follow up questions to my answers, i'd be happy to oblige provided you answer my one question.

cyborg909 · #19 (**permalink**) 07-17-2012, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

there you go, i've answered your questions to the best of my ability. i cannot guarantee anything, but i am making the best conclusion based on in the information i have in front of me. i know zaka ashraf is a smart man who has made good decisions for pakistan cricket. if he's been busting his balls off for a series with india, well there must be a reason behind that. it's not like he wants to take his family to a vacation in delhi. and based on what i can see, i have interpreted that this series is occuring in good faith that we'll get a chance to host a series soon and then benefit from what that brings. you can say we have nothing to gain, but from my perspective, we have a ton to gain. not only financially, but also from the players perspective. india vs pakistan is one of the biggest rivalries in sports, and any player worth their salt would want to prove themselves in these sorts of contests. these are the games in which people make a name for themselves. even though i hate wahab riaz and think he's massively overrated, i will never forget his 5-for vs india in the semis for as long as i live, just because it was vs india in such a high profile game.

now ahmad that i've answered your questions, i hope you will seriously answer one of mine. i'm not attacking you or anyone else but i just want to understand.

you and cyborg especially seem to take a huge issue with this series. you think it's wrong, that we are getting raped, and you don't want it to happen. so then i'd like to know how you can justify what will inevitably happen in 6 months: you'll be swept up by india vs pakistan fever and will be thumping your chest cheering for pakistan to crush india. if you are having such an issue with this series, then don't you think you should not watch the series, or get excited about it? should you not boycott the series in principle? i am not attacking, i just want to understand how you reconcile this issue in your mind. if you have follow up questions to my answers, i'd be happy to oblige provided you answer my one question.

From the 1st post where article is posted here is the quote to ur answer regarding Ahmed/ 1st Qts

Quote:

A big part of that was a Pakistani proposal to look for "neutral" venues, which translated, meant Dubai or Sharjah. Pakistan, said, sources, needs revenues desperately, because after the 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lankan players, there has been no international cricket played in Pakistan.

The Indian side was not at all keen on these venues, since they are a hotbed for betting. And there was no question of Indian players going to Pakistan.

Rest doesn't even require an answer.

Regarding fever of india-pak and want to crush india, I am certain on my part and if m not wrong Ahmed/ has said same thing, this is the weakest team we sending and I dun expect pak to win even a single game if pak wins ofcoz i would be happy, once again you are mixing the issue, the issue is not watching the series or pak to win, issue is what Pak is gaining?

AHMAD\ · #20 (**permalink**) 07-17-2012, 05:52 PM

1) Well, BCCI's excused itself from sending team to UAE blaming that UAE is the center of Match fixing. This was in the articles mentioning why India doesn't want to honor it's commitment of away series with Pakistan as given in FTP. So I am not sold on the idea that they will be any serious about touring UAE even if Pakistan toured India this year. They have proven in the past that they are not the one who really abide by the commitments, and in fact Pakistan has been on the receiving end of their non-sense many times.

Pakistan have big hearts or not, I care less. It's not an emotional drama or Bollywood film that's happening. We are talking about real world and we got to be realistic about our cricket and future. There sincerity with the game and towards Pakistan Cricket has always been questionable, and this episode didn't make be believe that anything has changed.

2) That's where I have biggest problem because PCB has done all this based on 'hope'. There is no concrete guarantee that India will give us a return tour. I don't know how else this resumption of ties will be beneficial for Pakistan cricket. BCCI can easily bully around one more time, conveniently putting off the series and that is very very likely after seeing how they were going about PCB and Pakistan cricket & players in recent past. No IPL, No Champions League, No honoring of FTP, I can't just put aside all that.
Regarding advertisement & broadcasting money, PCB will get nothing out of broadcast money and only superstar players will make any money from DOMESTIC sponsorship commercials. There is no other financial benefits for PCB in this series.

3) If you can give me one example that BCCI has honored the long term commitment with PCB then I will believe there is some substance to it, but reality is there is none. Then how can you make a case for long term goal when there is not even a shadow of hope from anything that BCCI has done in past?

4) Adil how I see it is as follow: We are taking an entry in the DEAD END alley. There is a big warning sign at the entrance that says "DEAD END". We still want to enter the alley thanks to our wishful thinking, that somehow that DEAD END will miraculously disappear and that alley will lead us to somewhere. Problem is this is not our first time entering that alley, hence we are pretty much fooling ourselves once again by the idea of entering that alley. One year and two year whenever, when the reality will struck again, we'll again come out of it bemused and empty handed....sulking over why did we enter the alley. Well should've learn the lesson first time, that would've been ideal but we are very good at stupefying ourselves that we'll entertain the idea of going into that DEAD END alley once again.

So bottom line: It will be harsh criticism but I don't see anything that makes me believe to trust BCCI. You wanna do it, that's your call. I never trusted them, and never will. I hope you get rewarded for whatever you are wishing for, I'd like to excuse myself as I'd chose to keep my expectation a bit realistic.

Now about your question about me or cyborg or anyone else to not watch PAK-IND series: First of all it's a very childish request. I can't speak for cyborg or anyone else but I am a Pakistan cricket fan, a die hard one and every game of theirs is important for me. So I'll watch it. Whether I be as excited about it as I get to when I watch PAK vs AUS or PAK vs SA, I don't think so. Because I honestly believe that playing against Australia brings the best out of Pakistan and improves Pakistan cricket. Only a pure cricket admirer will understand that, not necessarily an emotional one. PAK vs AUS is always the best series for me, and no series to me is superior to this one. Supporting wickets, sporting aggressive cricket, hard and rough plays in the mix of high caliber performances, evenly matched talents....I am talking about Cricket at it's best for Pakistan. Pak vs Ind is only entertainment, Pak vs Aus is real Cricket...this is how I see it.

If you want me to not discuss the PAK performance against IND I will not discuss it. I won't be enthusiastic about that series anyways. There is nothing for Pakistan in that series. You've asked me to do this before and I did that. You or anyone else cannot get me excited about this series.

adil_909 · #21 (**permalink**) 07-18-2012, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyborg909

Regarding fever of india-pak and want to crush india, I am certain on my part and if m not wrong Ahmed/ has said same thing, this is the weakest team we sending and I dun expect pak to win even a single game if pak wins ofcoz i would be happy, once again you are mixing the issue, the issue is not watching the series or pak to win, issue is what Pak is gaining?

yes they are two seperate issues, i'm not saying the are one issue. but my point is that you are wrong on both issues.

issue 1) what do we have to gain? we have a lot to gain. restoration of ties means that we will get money IN THE LONG RUN. zaka is not thinking 6m down the road, he is thinking 2-3 yrs down the road and its a sign of a good businessman.

issue 2) your hypocrisy? when i am strongly not in favor of something, i do not participate in it. if i oppose something so strongly as to make multiple posts, condemn it in multiple ways, and express disgust going back not days or weeks, but months or years, then i will not participate in this activity when the time comes. but you guys are saying on one hand you are strongly opposed to it, but on the other hand you want the freedom to celebrate and cheer paksitan on when the series arises. you don't see a problem in this? you have to pick a side and stick with it.

adil_909 · #22 (**permalink**) 07-18-2012, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

1) Well, BCCI's excused itself from sending team to UAE blaming that UAE is the center of Match fixing. This was in the articles mentioning why India doesn't want to honor it's commitment of away series with Pakistan as given in FTP. So I am not sold on the idea that they will be any serious about touring UAE even if Pakistan toured India this year. They have proven in the past that they are not the one who really abide by the commitments, and in fact Pakistan has been on the receiving end of their non-sense many times.

Pakistan have big hearts or not, I care less. It's not an emotional drama or Bollywood film that's happening. We are talking about real world and we got to be realistic about our cricket and future. There sincerity with the game and towards Pakistan Cricket has always been questionable, and this episode didn't make be believe that anything has changed.

2) That's where I have biggest problem because PCB has done all this based on 'hope'. There is no concrete guarantee that India will give us a return tour. I don't know how else this resumption of ties will be beneficial for Pakistan cricket. BCCI can easily bully around one more time, conveniently putting off the series and that is very very likely after seeing how they were going about PCB and Pakistan cricket & players in recent past. No IPL, No Champions League, No honoring of FTP, I can't just put aside all that.
Regarding advertisement & broadcasting money, PCB will get nothing out of broadcast money and only superstar players will make any money from DOMESTIC sponsorship commercials. There is no other financial benefits for PCB in this series.

3) If you can give me one example that BCCI has honored the long term commitment with PCB then I will believe there is some substance to it, but reality is there is none. Then how can you make a case for long term goal when there is not even a shadow of hope from anything that BCCI has done in past?

4) Adil how I see it is as follow: We are taking an entry in the DEAD END alley. There is a big warning sign at the entrance that says "DEAD END". We still want to enter the alley thanks to our wishful thinking, that somehow that DEAD END will miraculously disappear and that alley will lead us to somewhere. Problem is this is not our first time entering that alley, hence we are pretty much fooling ourselves once again by the idea of entering that alley. One year and two year whenever, when the reality will struck again, we'll again come out of it bemused and empty handed....sulking over why did we enter the alley. Well should've learn the lesson first time, that would've been ideal but we are very good at stupefying ourselves that we'll entertain the idea of going into that DEAD END alley once again.

So bottom line: It will be harsh criticism but I don't see anything that makes me believe to trust BCCI. You wanna do it, that's your call. I never trusted them, and never will. I hope you get rewarded for whatever you are wishing for, I'd like to excuse myself as I'd chose to keep my expectation a bit realistic.

Now about your question about me or cyborg or anyone else to not watch PAK-IND series: First of all it's a very childish request. I can't speak for cyborg or anyone else but I am a Pakistan cricket fan, a die hard one and every game of theirs is important for me. So I'll watch it. Whether I be as excited about it as I get to when I watch PAK vs AUS or PAK vs SA, I don't think so. Because I honestly believe that playing against Australia brings the best out of Pakistan and improves Pakistan cricket. Only a pure cricket admirer will understand that, not necessarily an emotional one. PAK vs AUS is always the best series for me, and no series to me is superior to this one. Supporting wickets, sporting aggressive cricket, hard and rough plays in the mix of high caliber performances, evenly matched talents....I am talking about Cricket at it's best for Pakistan. Pak vs Ind is only entertainment, Pak vs Aus is real Cricket...this is how I see it.

If you want me to not discuss the PAK performance against IND I will not discuss it. I won't be enthusiastic about that series anyways. There is nothing for Pakistan in that series. You've asked me to do this before and I did that. You or anyone else cannot get me excited about this series.

you're right there is a good chance you will not be excited about the series, i should not have lumped you in with cyborg. you have said repeatedly that you want pakistan vs aus more than pakistan vs india. and you've expressed a desire to separate from india/bcci in the past so i don't have as much of an issue with that. my points are more directed at cyborg. right now he's acting so offended and insulted that india pak series is happening, but in december, he will be jumping up and down with joy that the series is occuring, will be opening all sorts of threads about it, and have a strong personal investment in the outcome. thats what i'm having more of an issue with because i know it will happen.

cyborg909 · #23 (**permalink**) 07-18-2012, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

yes they are two seperate issues, i'm not saying the are one issue. but my point is that you are wrong on both issues.

issue 1) what do we have to gain? we have a lot to gain. restoration of ties means that we will get money IN THE LONG RUN. zaka is not thinking 6m down the road, he is thinking 2-3 yrs down the road and its a sign of a good businessman.

issue 2) your hypocrisy? when i am strongly not in favor of something, i do not participate in it. if i oppose something so strongly as to make multiple posts, condemn it in multiple ways, and express disgust going back not days or weeks, but months or years, then i will not participate in this activity when the time comes. but you guys are saying on one hand you are strongly opposed to it, but on the other hand you want the freedom to celebrate and cheer paksitan on when the series arises. you don't see a problem in this? you have to pick a side and stick with it.

I am really getting tired of ur illogical argument and repeating myself again and again, the FTP that covers 10 yrs had 4 series between india vs pak, india didn't tour pak so that left 3 series, out of 3, 2 will be played in india and only one pak will host. Since India has rejected playing pak in UAE or in Pak its safe to assume we wont have that series so ur argument abt money in long run don't hold water.

I have no hypocrisy when have i cheered india or bcci? I have been consistent with it, the issue is not watching cricket, issue is why pak so hell bent on having this series squeeze in, what benefit pak gets from it?

adil_909 · #24 (**permalink**) 07-18-2012, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyborg909

I am really getting tired of ur illogical argument and repeating myself again and again, the FTP that covers 10 yrs had 4 series between india vs pak, india didn't tour pak so that left 3 series, out of 3, 2 will be played in india and only one pak will host. Since India has rejected playing pak in UAE or in Pak its safe to assume we wont have that series so ur argument abt money in long run don't hold water.

I have no hypocrisy when have i cheered india or bcci? I have been consistent with it, the issue is not watching cricket, issue is why pak so hell bent on having this series squeeze in, what benefit pak gets from it?

did you just start watching crickt? half of series that pak competes in are outside FTP. also FTP is at the whim and mercy of bcci which controls icc so not sure why you are expecting to get justice through the ftp. the end goal is to generate funds for the pcb and pakistani cricket in general, and pcb has understood that organizing series with india is the best way to do that. it has nothing to do with the FTP! everyone knows that you can organize sereis outside of that if you both boards agree and that's what zaka is taking aim at - he's establishing cordial relations between pcb and bcci so that in the future it will be easier to get these series sorted out.

and regarding hypocrisy, it is absolutely about watching cricket. by watching it you are giving your approval. if you are so opposed to it then don't watch it. simple. if you watch it that means you approve. and since we know you will watch it, thats why i'm asking you to spare us all this drama you are putting on right now.

AHMAD\ · #25 (**permalink**) 07-18-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

you're right there is a good chance you will not be excited about the series, i should not have lumped you in with cyborg. you have said repeatedly that you want pakistan vs aus more than pakistan vs india. and you've expressed a desire to separate from india/bcci in the past so i don't have as much of an issue with that. my points are more directed at cyborg. right now he's acting so offended and insulted that india pak series is happening, but in december, he will be jumping up and down with joy that the series is occuring, will be opening all sorts of threads about it, and have a strong personal investment in the outcome. thats what i'm having more of an issue with because i know it will happen.

Abb I cannot speak for cyborg. He is in a better position to answer for himself.

BTW while I was reading through stuff about this series. I came across few comments from Indian ex-cricketers.

Sunil Gavaskar: "Being a Mumbaikar I feel what is the urgency when there is no co-operation from the other side,"

Kirti Azad: "lame and weak"

Sanjay Majrekar hailed the development but at the same time suggesting that IND vs AUS would have filled the void.

I have read the comments in ET section by several Indians as well, none of which were appreciative of PCB. I also see the engineered reports posted in TOI suggesting that PCB may consider refusing the tour because they want share. Several other Indian media outlets has also started smear campaign against this series, terming it as weak move of BCCI.

Now from all this, I am finding it really hard to decipher any form of sincerity coming from Indian board, ex-cricketers or Indian people. On the other hand, not a single Pakistan cricketer ex or current came on record suggesting disapproval on resumption of ties neither did any politician or board member. I mean where is that whole mantra that "Both nations are serious about resuming Cricket, separating sports from politics?????". Quite disdainfully yet worryingly, I am also bemused by your ignorance of such fine prints on wall.