Okay now compare their averages on good green top wickets in australia, south africa, england and new zealand. Again as i said, you are completely biased on one side.

Pakisg8, do yourself a favour and go to these links:

Wasim and Mcgrath:http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?s...ds=comparetype
Waqar and Mcgrath: http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?s...ds=comparetype

Sir if u wanna compare strike rates and avgs then i shd suggest it to you, i can put a list of bowlers that will certainly "blow" you comment.

U wanna talk just abt strike rates and avgs, then lol bond is the best. Then even akhtar comes on top of mcgrath. Pls donot pass me those rubbish stats which doesnt show the complete picture. Do stats show how bad the feilding was? Do they show how much pressure was on the bowler? DO they show how many matches bowlers have won single handedly?

I said it before and i am saying it again...stats dont show the complete thing. If you just take stats as they are, then gary sobers was an ordinary cricketer. Allan Knot was an ordinary wicket keeper. And if you have seen ESPN ledgends of cricket, most of the guys say it that mcgrath doesnt come close to what wasim has done for cricket.

Wasim and Waqar have produced THE spell in New Zealand which defies death itself. They DEFENDED....... no worng word, thats something mcgrath wud do....they ATTACKED with a score of 126 needed by kiwis to win and they clean bowled the kiwis of a dead flat track with banana swings. I just dont have words on how deadly wasim and waqar were either in a pair or seperate and the truth is a fast bowler is known for his venom: which is either pace o swing. Mcgrath doesnt have both!

hai allah... my god u girls just have way to much time.. speaking of girls u guys really need one to get all this frustration out..
ne way i'm just butting in.. u fellas have a good discussion going on here.. its just so freaking long, can you guys make it a bit more concise..?

-MuhammaD khaN-

__________________
-Muhammad M Khan-

The craft u r talking abt is called negative mind bowling to me. You are scared on bowling to a batsman if you cannot bowl him on the stumps. I agree mcgrath gets his wickets cleverly but is he good enough to go thru the defences of likes of sachin on flat track - simply no. Wasim has done this a million times. Look, you cannot argue that wasim was even equal to mcgrath. In county cricket he is known as a God of bowling. Polls have shown that batsmen feared him and his toe crushing yorkers. No one has bowled a yorker with that accuray that he and waqar have bowled. You cannot say mcgrath had more seam and swing than Wasim. And you cannot say that either of them was top on each other in regards to accuracy. Wasim was deadly accurate.

Did mcgrath had a chance to bowl agaisnt batsmen like the waughs, like gilly, like boon and border. You have to see that was steve was is one of the greatest batsman and there were many like him in the aus side which mcgrath didnot bowl agaisnt, certainly effects the average. LOL i think on his debut he took 7 wickets! How can u say he was nothing great at the start. Imran pointed out when wasim first came that wasim is gonna be one of the best history has ever seen. He is more known for his bowling in world cup 92 which made him more famous but he had already bambozaled the players by his shortish runup and his high pace. Dont forget when u comapre mcgrath with waqar and wasim, you are comparing a medium pace to fast. Medium pacers are bound to have better average otherwise they are useless. A fast bowler has an excellent avg if he is round abt 25....thats considered excellent. And its commom sense, medium paces put let effort and they have better control over thier line. You cannot argue that fast bowler shd have a better control.

WEll sire lemme remind you what imran khan and naser hussain said abt sami - he is like malcom marshall. Dont underestimate a hidden tallent. Ask any person why mcgrath gets wickets because he bowls a "nagging" line. Indians plan agaisnt him by just leaving the ball whenever mcgrath bowls so cause they dont wanna get sucked into the shot. And they know if he bows onto the stumps, its a peice of cake to work it away. Mcgrath is known for his control - THATS IT! Not his wicket taking ability but his control. Wasim was known for his variations and pace. Same goes for waqar. Both attacked the stumps and were wicket takers.

Its a shame you share an incident involving and immature batsman and a good bowler. Even pathan did that...whats special abt it. I have repeated a million times that stats dont give the complete picture. LOL i am not baised as far as i can tell you. I am telling you the fact. Wasim was one hell of a cricketer and his ability to bowl and bat is light years ahead of mcgrath. Mcgrath came in the age where he olny faced two great batsmen - lara and tendulkar. Whereas wasim was agaisnt the likes of lara, tendulkar and waughs. Wasim has bowled to more talented batsmen than mcgrath has and the fact that batting has been on the lower side after the middle 90s, proves why mcgrath has a better average.

Thanks bro...apperciate you comments.

Well thats exactly what i have been saying to mervik. He talk abt stats whereas if he hides the fact that stats dont show the complete picture. He is forgeting the thing which you mentioned above and the way he bowled in WI and the wrong decision he had agasint him, that wud have allowed him more wickets cause if u remember he was like a lone man appealing for his wicket. With the aussies, from thier feilding to appealing, everything comes in favour of the bowler. I agree they are small but if you just take the fact that how many times wasim had a wicket by lbw or bowled then you will see that if mcgrath doesnt get the help of his feilding, he doesnt have that many bowleds and lbws as wasim. Wasim helped himself in what he has become. Not mcgrath, not entirely.

lol i know man, if u r not a part of it, you always hate reading long arguments. Will try to keep it short.

ok stop this arguement its perfetic u lot r arguing over bowlers yeahhh welll think about it r u there on that stage as them no so obviously u lot r just doing it to grab attention just like the media tut tut tut tut lol

show me when Holding said that and since when is Holding the greatest bowler

i agree lol

[QUOTE=Pakisg8]Sir if u wanna compare strike rates and avgs then i shd suggest it to you, i can put a list of bowlers that will certainly "blow" you comment.

U wanna talk just abt strike rates and avgs, then lol bond is the best. Then even akhtar comes on top of mcgrath. Pls donot pass me those rubbish stats which doesnt show the complete picture. Do stats show how bad the feilding was? Do they show how much pressure was on the bowler? DO they show how many matches bowlers have won single handedly?

How many matches has bond played as compared to wasim and mcgrath. Both these bowlers have played over 100 tests and 200 ODI's so there stats certinely reflect their bowling.

[QUOTE=Pakisg8]I said it before and i am saying it again...stats dont show the complete thing. If you just take stats as they are, then gary sobers was an ordinary cricketer. Allan Knot was an ordinary wicket keeper. And if you have seen ESPN ledgends of cricket, most of the guys say it that mcgrath doesnt come close to what wasim has done for cricket.

You are right, stats dont tell the entire story and that is why i am telling you my own personal experience from watching mcgrath. I have seen this man bowl and i have to say he is a genius and a master of his own craft. Mcgrath cannot be in the ESPN legends of cricket because he has not retired yet, let him retire and then lets see.

Pace along does not makes you deadly, yes in the eyes of an ordinary fan shoaib akhtar would look more deadly then mcgrath but is this true, No its not. If you are saying wasim and waqar have defended many small totals, mcgrath along with gillispie has defended small totals. Yes mcgrath dosen't has a good pace or swing but his line alone gets him more wickets and a better economy rate then both wasim and waqar.

So line and length is called negative bowling , can you be anymore funny. Line and length is the most important craft in becaming a great bowler, pace along or swing is not the most dangerous weopons. If you cannot put the bowl in the right areas how do you expect to get a wicket. Mcgrath does not bowls to the batsmen on the stumps because he bowls at a speed of 82 to 83 miles, now with that pace you cannot afford to bowl at the stumps or else you willl get smacked like the indian bowlers do. Are you implying that mcgrath hasn't gone through the defences of sachin, mcgrath has always dominated sachin and that is why he averages 22 against him in india my friend. Dravid, who has a much better defence then sachin, mcgrath averages 12 against him. Yes wasim has went through the defence of sachin millions of times and that is why he has only dismissed him only once in test cricket . Over and over again you are making false claims and i am proving you wrong. I never said that mcgrath swung the ball better then wasim, wasim was accurate but not as accurate as mcgrath. Mcgrath is a bowler who can pitch the bowl on the same spot in all 6 deliveries.


Well mcgrath has bowled to the likes of lara, sachin, dravid and big inzii so there is not much difference there and lara and tendulkar are much better then all of the batsmen you mentioned which were in the aus side. Well wasim took 7 wickets not on his debut, in his second test and he was a force in the 90's as i said before. in 80's he was considered a good talent but in 90's he started converting his special talent into good performances. Well thats a fallacy that a fast bowler's average of 25 is considered good, how much does garner, ambrose and marshall average. they were also fast bowlers and may i ask how are medium pacers bound to get a better average. Usually fast bowlers have a better average then medium pacers because they have an excellent strike rate. Now look what a bowler mcgrath is, even after being a medium pacer he contains a better strike rate then wasim. What does this tells you, this man is a bowling genius.


Well whatever imran or nasir says about sami, yes he is talented i agree but whats the point of having talent when you cannot convert your talent into performance. Well even if the indians leave his deliveries, how come still mcgrath does so well against them. If mcgrath was not known for his wicket taking deliveries, how come he has a better strike rate then wasim. Explain this.



How come batting has been on the lower side, i actually see these great batsmen coming out. Sarwan, Kallis and lots of young talent. Mcgrath bowled to inzi, tendulkar and lara and thats more then enough. He has done better against them as compared to wasim bhai. I know that stats dont tell the entire story, but they do give a basic idea and i am not only using stats. I am also using my personal experience of watching mcgrath.

P.S Boy this convo has gone pretty long

I am not saying mcgrath is a ledgend. Mcgrath has definatley shown that you dont have to be a special bowler to get wickets - getting the basics perfect can the you wickets. He will definately be a part of espn ledgends of cricket but the cricket offered by wasim to circket world is much more than mcgrath and that makes him a better bowler. His ability to swing it both way in one delivery, toe crushing yorkers (wasnt done before), mastery over reverse swing (wasnt done before either). Mcgrath has shown that u need basic to be a good bowler - that is having a perfect control over line and length. Otherwise ppl wud have thought if bowlers had no swing he wont be successful.

Shoaib on his day is more deadly than any other bowler playing cricket. U statment is right in some circumstances but they way shoaib has bowled agaisnt england on flat pitches and they way mcgrath had bowled on english pitches shows how shear pace is more effective MOST OF THE TIMES than line n lenght

if u have the series where pakistan lost to WI in WI and holding was the comenatator. He said it. I have the clips and he said it. Not my fault if u missed it

if u have the clips than post it