Originally Posted by AHMAD\

Yaar wahan system ajeeb ho gaya hai...

The culture has become more selfish and self serving. It's a one thing to have an opportunistic mentality and a completely different thing to have a cunning and deceitful one. That's how I've experience things over there in my very recent visit. Religion, ethnicity, language... the divisions have become ever so prominent like never before and thanks to lack of tolerance and spread of hatred nobody bothers to look for self rectifying instead are more interested in satisfying fake egos. You brought a good point about Barelvis, and I'll tell you that it will be their turn once the Mullahs are done with Christians and Qadyanis. I never understand the rationale of extremist sympathizers either. The people who are standing against your country, your society, your values and culture....instead of condemning them you are having a soft corner for them, what kind of BS is that. Is tarah dekha jaiy to un ki nazar main Pak Army haram maut mar rahi hai extremist ke against. And when I question their loyalties to Pakistan based on such heinous and regretful thinking, everyone has spastic fits.

The extremist and radical ideologies have been so systemically settled in the society that you would wonder why a person doesn't think about Islam in regards to teachings about humanity and welfare. All they care is about straightening up 'who's the right Muslim and who's not'. This is not the Islam for which Pakistan was created. In fact the whole idea that Pakistan was created for Islam was twisted by our Mullahs, it was as simple as that it was created for Muslims of sub-continent to have right of self determination. Nothing more nothing less. Had constitution of 1973 not given religion a backdoor entry I think situation would have been much under control.

Originally Posted by cyborg909

Bhayya apki assertion he ghalat hai, thats the point am trying to make laikin app sunna he nahi chahte, we must understand why Pakistan was created. I will try to summarize, but I beg you to try to understand a difference of opinion or opposition to an idea doesn't neccessary means that the opposition should be comdemned forever. Back to my point

1 - By all accounts Sir Syed was the father of two nation thoery, the intellectuals like Maulana Azad rejected the notion that religion alone can be reason for different nation. Muslim League couldn't counter the eloquence and debate skills of maulana azad, now am not gonna condemn Maulana he understood this way and I donot agree with the concept. By all accounts Maulana Maududi was widely read among Muslim league leadership and they both courted each other, Maududi sahib wrote the masala-e-qaumiyaat and destroyed Maulana Azad's points, which Muslim league took and propagated further expanding Maududi sahib's view.

2 - Allama Iqbal encountered Maualana Madni opposition effectively sidelinning ulema. You are well aware Maulana Maududi was declared kafir by same ulema too.

3 - Quaid in his All India Muslim League presidential address delivered in Lahore, on March 22, 1940, said: Two-Nation Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



4 - While maulana madni and his companions were against creation of pakistani not all ulema were e.g Maulana Ashraf ali Thanvi etc etc

In conclusion reading Quaid's own word and numerous speeches I have posted dispel any notion that he was secular, I strongly believe and can prove he understood Islam better then any of his contemporaries, his vision of Pakistan was clear an Islamic welfare state that wouldn't be theocratic not exclusively only for muslims, where rights of all minorities shall be safeguarded and when it comes to state no discriminations shall be allowed, under his vision which is the true vision e.g, a hindu can't be barred from administrative state post because he is hindu. But since its islamic state head of state the overall authority shall remain muslim.

Now turning to your qts of opposition to creation of Pak, I would submit and would like you to think please, ANP founder was against creation of pakistan, GM Syed as early as in 1950 started talking abt sindh independence, Bangla-urdu riot and bangla nationalism was evident in Quaid own time, there are numerous example, yet today we don't tlk abt ANP? The communists of that era which 1st evolved in socialist movement and now masqureade as liberals. My point is what happened at creation of pak who did what is irrelevent, today or post partition who did what should also be accounted for. ANP has given up the ghost of its founder who didn't even want to be buried in Pakistan, Sindhi nationalist are now demanding autonomy inside pakistan, religious right has remained loyal to pak geographic boundries and has pledged its loyalty to state of pakistan. JI was the only major opposition till zia took over the country and has done its share by supporting even Fatima Jinnah as head of state.

Whether one agrees with thier political ideology is the issue, one can support them or vehemently oppose them but saying they are not pakistani just because you don't agree with thier ideology is disingenious.

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

Bhaiyya agar assertion galat hoti to aap factual evidence se isey prove ki jiye, hawaii chakkay na maraiye.

1) There are no such accounts that Muslim league was unable to counter the eloquence of Molana Azad. And where did eloquence eve come from, Muslim League had a political stance and movement was well supported in undivided India. ulim League doesn't need Maulana Maududi to support or propel their principle. Had this been the case, his name was well taken among the leaders of the movement. He chose to opt against Pakistan movement, and only saw it as a viable option after the creation of Pakistan. Muslim League's base was for creation of homeland for Muslims of sub-continent for their right of self determination, much different then version propagated by Maududi sahab which has stricter implementation of Islamic System as ONLY viable option for creation of Pakistan. He was proven wrong because Pakistan was created regardless, and without his help.

2) 3) 4) doesn't require any reply.

As far as QeA, you can form opinion but above all he wants a united and stable Pakistan not a dented one divided along the lines of religion. QeA wants Pakistan for Muslims as a country with their own right of self determination, all talks about implementation of Islamic system is extraneous and engineered.

Now regarding your statement about ANP, I have no respect for ANP. I could care less about their political agenda or what not. I don't waste time commenting on them. But your attempt on proving Jamat-e-Islami as some sort of angelic clan, I'll certainly will rectify that. Why don't you give account of 1953 Lahore riots on the behest of Molana Maududi ??? 2000 or so people were killed in those riots instigated on the bases of religion, surely that's NOT WHAT QUAID e AZAM WANTED FROM PAKISTAN in 6th year of it's inception.

What happened at the creation of Pakistan and who did what IS NOT IRRELEVANT. It's the history and it puts all in order when people of some fascist ideology come and try to enforce it upon Pakistan today. Mujhay koi shauq nahi hai, magar Bhaiyya jab tum dosroon ko dewaar se laganay ki koshish kartay ho, dosroon ke Qiblay durust karnay ki thekeydari kartay ho to auqaat to tumhari bhi yaad dilana zaroori hojata hai....kyun??

'Religious Rights' are loyal to Pakistan, I doubt that....had they been any loyal for real, today they wouldn't be calling out Pakistan Army Shahadats as Haram Mauts in their fight against extremism. And don't even try to differentiate that JI is not linked with this and that, they are all sympathizers of same crude fascist ideology, that is to control masses on the bases of pseudo and self professed principles of Islam. None of which is ideologically aligned with the founding principles of Pakistan.

Originally Posted by cyborg909

Abb is ahmaqana statement ke baad kuch kehne ko nahi. I gave u citation abt Quaid own word and Liaqut ali himslef, but u wont listen or admit. So lets be it

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

baat factual ho to dhiyaan bhi diya jaiy bhai, warna mafrozay to koi bhi la sakta hai. Aap to champion rahay ho, latay raho naye naye mafrozay...koi rok thori raha hai aapko.

Your understanding about QeA is quite limited and based on selective perception, hence there is no point of having discussion with you about the great leader.

Originally Posted by cyborg909

haan saree maloomaat apko hai i gave u his own words but u don't want to admit. Abb jahalat ka koi jawab nahi

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

woh own words (from wikipedia) bhi social differences ki baat kartay hain. They don't give any right of Thekaydari of Islam, jo aaj aap baray shauq se kartay phirtay ho....lol

Originally Posted by cyborg909

see now u not making any sense that wiki link i gave u was most handy it did provide the link of actual address so why don't u act on ur own words since Quaid-e-azam words are ur guiding principles so why not follow them. Forget words for a minute just tell me this Quaid headed ALL India Muslim league or all india secular league, just look at the party he head and whose thoughts he tried to implement i.e Iqbal, surely iqbal was secular to the core when he said

tumharee tehzeeb app apne khanjar se khudkashi kare gee LOL

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

Yes it was All India Muslim League (A party representative for self determination right of Muslim) and for a good reason not ALL INDIA JAMAT-e-ISLAMI (which would have been representative of ISLAMIC LAW ENFORCEMENT)

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

Yes it was All India Muslim League (A party representative for self determination right of Muslim) and for a good reason not ALL INDIA JAMAT-e-ISLAMI (which would have been representative of ISLAMIC LAW ENFORCEMENT)

Originally Posted by cyborg909

Here let me school you about quaid-e-azam in his own words

1 - Address by Muhammad Ali Jinnah to the Muslim League, Lahore, 1940



2 - “We do not demand Pakistan simply to have a piece of land but we want a laboratory where we could experiment on Islamic principles.”(In 1946, Quaid-e-Azam Islamia College Peshawar)

3 - Pakistan should be based on pure Islamic Socialism!!! [by Quaid-e-Azam (r.a) in Original Voice] - YouTube

4 - “You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve.”
Address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi
February 21, 1948

5 - “We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to our own lights and culture and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play.”
Address to Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers of Pakistan Government, Karachi October 11, 1947

6 - It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law-giver, the Prophet of Islam.

(Speech at Shahi Darbar, Sibi, February 14, 1948)

7 - Addressing Bar Association Karachi on 25th March 1948,

“Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundation of democracy… The Prophet was a great teacher. He was a great lawgiver. He was a great statesman and a great sovereign who ruled. No doubt, there are many people who do not quite appreciate when we talk of Islam. Islam is not only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is also a code for every Muslim, which regulates his life and his conduct in even politics and economics and the like. It is based upon highest principles of honor, integrity, fair play and justice for all. One God and the equality of man is one of the fundamental principles of Islam. In Islam there is no difference between man and man. The qualities of equality, liberty and fraternity are the fundamental principles in Islam.”

Last, but not the least

In the Karachi Session of the Muslim League in 1943, Nawab Bahadur Yar Jang, clearly stated in the presence of Muhammad Ali Jinnah:
‘There is no denying the fact that we want Pakistan for the establishment of Quranic system of government. It will bring about a revolution in our life, a renaissance, a new fervour and zeal, and above all, a resuscitation of pristine Islamic purity and glory’. Addressing Jinnah, who was presiding over the session, he had stated, ‘Quaid-i-Azam, we have understood Pakistan in this light. If your Pakistan is not such, we do not want it’.
In his submission later, Jinnah had endorsed these views and held that ‘Islam was the bed-rock of the community’.

If u want more I can cite many more, the you are free to go to ur temple... speech doesn't deviate from core message. If you claims that U love quaid-e-azam and wants hsi pakistan then admit it he never wanted or desired secular pakistan.

Originally Posted by adil_909

its just so funny (sad) that you read these lines and interpret this as quaid wanting kind of pakistan we have now. there is nothing islamic about pakistani society. don't you get it? there is nothing wrong with both wanting a state that supports minority rights AND is based on strong islamic moral values, these are perfectly compatible because this is basic islamic teaching! so why are you trying to so hard to defend the indefensible again and again in every bloody thread?

Originally Posted by cyborg909

This same thread post # 10, after point no. 4 1st para. Stop assuming and try reading the arguments. The issue was never whether Islam provides social justice or not, it does, the issue was u guys claiming Jinnah wanted secular as Ahmed said, a land for muslims not islamic state. So admit it you guys were wrong Quaid did want Islamic state and if we implement Islamic social justice islamic teachings then our problems would be solved,

Now u can say thats not true, imposing islamic system wont cure nething and thats ur right to hold this view just admit it wasn't the founding principal. So i will ask u same qts u ask me, why defending the indefensible?

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

Reading all those "selective" and "very selective" quotes of great Quaid (which I still am not sure are real or made up since posted by you), you still can't prove a single thing that QeA want a Islamic Police State implemented. The paranoia is off limits...

There is no space for Mullahism in QeA's vision of Pakistan.