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AHMAD\ · #16 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

for many pakistanis, "service to the country" represents what qardi did a few months ago

That exactly what I was getting to, the collective demise of intellect.

cyborg909 · #17 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

for many pakistanis, "service to the country" represents what qardi did a few months ago

and yet he is given death sentence by same pakistani courts and then u asked why i say fake liberals, its cuz of these generalized statments and opinion, which coming from right wing nuts is understandable cuz they are idiots and unedcuated what the excuse of supposedly educated liberal class? Why in God name salman taseer couldn't follow the court ways instead of doing all that media drama knowing fully well education level of country and the who extremism war going on?

adil_909 · #18 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyborg909

and yet he is given death sentence by same pakistani courts and then u asked why i say fake liberals, its cuz of these generalized statments and opinion, which coming from right wing nuts is understandable cuz they are idiots and unedcuated what the excuse of supposedly educated liberal class? Why in God name salman taseer couldn't follow the court ways instead of doing all that media drama knowing fully well education level of country and the who extremism war going on?

hahahhahaa you are actually blaming salman taseer for his own death omg. you're probably the type of person that blames a girl who gets raped for wearing provocative clothes instead of blaming the rapist. unbelievable, keep it up.

also, if qadri gets executed, i'll change my name.

cyborg909 · #19 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

hahahhahaa you are actually blaming salman taseer for his own death omg. you're probably the type of person that blames a girl who gets raped for wearing provocative clothes instead of blaming the rapist. unbelievable, keep it up.

also, if qadri gets executed, i'll change my name.

there we go again, salman taseer was cuplable too for inciting the violence u cant yell fire in theatre and then claim free speech as SCOTUS clearly stated. So many ppl advised govt and salman taseer there are better ways yet he chose to incite and ignite, killing him was wrong and I hope qadri gets hanged hopefully sooner the better we cannot allow vigilante justice and qadri must be hanged ASAP. At same token ppl should be careful knowing the intellect level and the emotional attachment to Prophet PBUH before going on national tv and mocking them. To date not a single person has been killed for blasphemy in Pakistan, majority of the cases are against muslims contrary to popular belief only minorities gets entrapped. There is serious need of dialogue and parliment debate to change blasphemy law, these should be televised and ppl should be educated abt it. Saying that law should be stricken not gonna happen instead law should be improved and implemented.

AHMAD\ · #20 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

hahahhahaa you are actually blaming salman taseer for his own death omg. you're probably the type of person that blames a girl who gets raped for wearing provocative clothes instead of blaming the rapist. unbelievable, keep it up.

also, if qadri gets executed, i'll change my name.

hahahaha

yaar, seriously WHAT IS THIS??? smh

adil_909 · #21 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyborg909

there we go again, salman taseer was cuplable too for inciting the violence u cant yell fire in theatre and then claim free speech as SCOTUS clearly stated. So many ppl advised govt and salman taseer there are better ways yet he chose to incite and ignite, killing him was wrong and I hope qadri gets hanged hopefully sooner the better we cannot allow vigilante justice and qadri must be hanged ASAP. At same token ppl should be careful knowing the intellect level and the emotional attachment to Prophet PBUH before going on national tv and mocking them. To date not a single person has been killed for blasphemy in Pakistan, majority of the cases are against muslims contrary to popular belief only minorities gets entrapped. There is serious need of dialogue and parliment debate to change blasphemy law, these should be televised and ppl should be educated abt it. Saying that law should be stricken not gonna happen instead law should be improved and implemented.

so we should keep pandering to the uneducated masses even though this policy has gotten us nowhere? we should keep blaming people who are trying to implement change? yes you cannot yell fire in a theater or yell bomb on a plane, but that is because this is a public safety hazard. who's safety did taseer endanger by supporting a christian woman accused of blasphemy? nobody. he did what he thought was the morally correct thing to do, and used his position in politics to try and implement positive change. but the uneducated masses you referred to decided to take matter into their own hands because they do not respect rule of law. that's not taseers fault, that's not governments fault. people need to understand that nobody is above the rule of law, you cannot just go and kill whoever you feel like, it's not a hard concept. if uneducated masses can't even have that much respect for human life, they i say f**k them and stop pandering to their every whim because this is not the way you run a nation by pandering to its most fanatic portions. the core lies in the middle, not extreme left or right, but the core is being held hostage by the fantatics and it's time for this to change.

adil_909 · #22 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

hahahaha

yaar, seriously WHAT IS THIS??? smh

it's a very common thing, esp in pakistan. rapist goes free while girl gets the blame. blame culture is very common, not just in pakistan but everywhere. and it's because of people like cyborg who defend the indefensible.

Lahoriii · #23 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:17 AM

on facebook, where intellectual pakistanis gather, abdus salam has 50 whole more likes than mumtaz qadri....

cyborg909 · #24 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adil_909

so we should keep pandering to the uneducated masses even though this policy has gotten us nowhere? we should keep blaming people who are trying to implement change? yes you cannot yell fire in a theater or yell bomb on a plane, but that is because this is a public safety hazard. who's safety did taseer endanger by supporting a christian woman accused of blasphemy? nobody. he did what he thought was the morally correct thing to do, and used his position in politics to try and implement positive change. but the uneducated masses you referred to decided to take matter into their own hands because they do not respect rule of law. that's not taseers fault, that's not governments fault. people need to understand that nobody is above the rule of law, you cannot just go and kill whoever you feel like, it's not a hard concept. if uneducated masses can't even have that much respect for human life, they i saw f**k them and stop pandering to their every whim because this is not the way you run a nation by pandering to its most fanatic portions. the core lies in the middle, not extreme left or right, but the core is being held hostage by the fantatics and it's time for this to change.

How would someone be able to change by coming on national tv and mocking the very same ppl one wants to change? Govt could easily have started debate in parliment. Why ppl take law in their hands and its not uneducated masses either vigilantism happens everywhere in the world irrespective of education or class status. To say only in pakistan and only by uneducated masses is false. Try to understand the point plz, to bring change just passing laws wont help, we need to engage the very masses we want so the change is permanent and enjoys broad support. It is ofcoz the responsiblity of govt to bring out debate and educate the masses.

Going back to my example of yelling fire, if the resulting stampede results in death shouldn't the person responsible pay the price? Salman Taseer and govt had ample resources to quietly free asia bibi, instead they decided to make spectacle of this knowing fully well the intolerance, the oppurtnuty to really exploit the issue hence they must share some blame.

User Name · #25 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyborg909

How would someone be able to change by coming on national tv and mocking the very same ppl one wants to change? Govt could easily have started debate in parliment. Why ppl take law in their hands and its not uneducated masses either vigilantism happens everywhere in the world irrespective of education or class status. To say only in pakistan and only by uneducated masses is false. Try to understand the point plz, to bring change just passing laws wont help, we need to engage the very masses we want so the change is permanent and enjoys broad support. It is ofcoz the responsiblity of govt to bring out debate and educate the masses.

Going back to my example of yelling fire, if the resulting stampede results in death shouldn't the person responsible pay the price? Salman Taseer and govt had ample resources to quietly free asia bibi, instead they decided to make spectacle of this knowing fully well the intolerance, the oppurtnuty to really exploit the issue hence they must share some blame.

I really can't believe I read that?

Are you really having a go at Salman Taseer and the government for Salman Taseer's death?

cyborg909 · #26 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by User Name

I really can't believe I read that?

Are you really having a go at Salman Taseer and the government for Salman Taseer's death?

may be u should read my previous post to understand.

AHMAD\ · #27 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyborg909

I am old enough and still don't recall the incidence of Dr. Abdussalam but i don't dispute it, I won't be surprised if that has happened we have done everything to everyone in our history that it wont surprise me, i can start from molvi mukarram who was beaten and doned a jotoon ka haar in dhakk uni to assassinations of elected PM's to ghunda gardee and blood shed in Universities across the pakistan. None of the incidents means that all pakistanis are like that.

I didn't mean that dr. abdus salam work was less, i meant nature of work, most ppl cant connect with his important work but can easily understand guy who gives us atom bomb its just human nature.

Also i would submit that Dr. Abdussalam left the country in protest that does play a large role in his recognition.

Taali do haath se bajtee hai, we can all sit and laments the intellectual levels in Pakistan but do realize dosre ka bhi thora shayad qasoor ho?

That means you proved that from inside you hold no respect for him, and still doubts everything. I can understand why it's hard for you to take the fact that how can he revels to such heights, that no Pakistani till today hasn't even come near of. If it hasn't been for his efforts the Universities in US and Europe wouldn't have allowed then Pakistani students (who later become eminent scientists) to acquire PhD and recognitions, including Dr. AQ.

Just see the picture I posted, He was sitting next to two of his colleague in his native dress with a paggar. This one thing signifies enough that how much he hold PAKISTAN and PAKISTANIS close to him. In my short memory, I haven't seen any Egyptian, Iranian, or African doing that at the Nobel ceremony. Yet no respect was reciprocated back, instead we are doubting that "TAALI DONO HAATHOON SE BAJTI HAI", intentionally thinking of ways to find flaws in his character.

BTW just to keep the record straight his protest was right as it was against a made up clause in constitution that denies religious liberty, the sole purpose of Pakistan's creation. It damaged Pakistan's integrity more than holding it together whether one agrees or not.

Lahoriii · #28 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

That means you proved that from inside you hold no respect for him, and still doubts everything. I can understand why it's hard for you to take the fact that how can he revels to such heights, that no Pakistani till today hasn't even come near of. If it hasn't been for his efforts the Universities in US and Europe wouldn't have allowed then Pakistani students (who later become eminent scientists) to acquire PhD and recognitions, including Dr. AQ.

Just see the picture I posted, He was sitting next to two of his colleague in his native dress with a paggar. This one thing is signifies enough that how much he hold PAKISTAN and PAKISTANIS close to him. In my short memory, I haven't seen any Egyptian, Iranian, or African doing that at the Nobel ceremony. Yet no respect was reciprocated back, instead we are doubting that "TAALI DONO HAATHOON SE BAJTI HAI", intentionally thinking of ways to find flaws in his character.

BTW just to keep the record straight his protest was right as it was against a made up clause in constitution that denies religious liberty, the sole purpose of Pakistan's creation. It damaged Pakistan's integrity more than holding it together whether one agrees or not.

Well said, and also, Salman Taseer's protest wasn't simply against the imprisonment of Aasia Bibi, it was the blasphemy law as a whole. Quietly freeing the woman would do no good as in the future other cases like her's would continue to develop.

cyborg909 · #29 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHMAD\

That means you proved that from inside you hold no respect for him, and still doubts everything. I can understand why it's hard for you to take the fact that how can he revels to such heights, that no Pakistani till today hasn't even come near of. If it hasn't been for his efforts the Universities in US and Europe wouldn't have allowed then Pakistani students (who later become eminent scientists) to acquire PhD and recognitions, including Dr. AQ.

Just see the picture I posted, He was sitting next to two of his colleague in his native dress with a paggar. This one thing is signifies enough that how much he hold PAKISTAN and PAKISTANIS close to him. In my short memory, I haven't seen any Egyptian, Iranian, or African doing that at the Nobel ceremony. Yet no respect was reciprocated back, instead we are doubting that "TAALI DONO HAATHOON SE BAJTI HAI", intentionally thinking of ways to find flaws in his character.

BTW just to keep the record straight his protest was right as it was against a made up clause in constitution that denies religious liberty, the sole purpose of Pakistan's creation. It damaged Pakistan's integrity more than holding it together whether one agrees or not.

I respect him for his contribution to science just like i would respect any eduated person and their contribution to humankind knowledge. They could be of any religion caste or race as long as they are ppl of knowledge they must be respected for having knowledge. I hope this clarifies once and for all my personal stand on this topic.

Plz try to understand what i said when u compared him to AQ Khan, to masses it resonates more compare to one guy who left country in protest and the other guy who left easy life in west to come back to his country to service his country. Ppl gonna be rightly or wrongly resonate with other its just human nature.

Now to your highlighted part I have provided extensive citations from Ahmediya's own book calling Muslims non-muslims, it was they who decided to be non-muslims. Its not a made up constitution clause and it wasn't passed by a dictator, the duly elected parliment which provided ample oppurtnity to ahmadiya community to present it case and was led by one of the brilliants minds Pakistan ever produced AG Yahya Bakhtiyar decided this. I can again if u wish can cite the whole thing but you can easily google it.

Contrary to the narrative being pushed today Pakistan was not formed to be secular it was formed to safeguards the interest of Muslims, state would be islamic it was led by Jinnah who was the lawyer for Ghazi Ilmuddin shaheed.

adil_909 · #30 (**permalink**) 07-07-2012, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyborg909

Going back to my example of yelling fire, if the resulting stampede results in death shouldn't the person responsible pay the price? Salman Taseer and govt had ample resources to quietly free asia bibi, instead they decided to make spectacle of this knowing fully well the intolerance, the oppurtnuty to really exploit the issue hence they must share some blame.

no it doesn't work like that. if someone yells fire in the theater and there is a stampede, the stampede occurs because people are fearful for their lives that they do not want to get stuck inside a burning theater. that is a normal reaction, when your life is in danger, your natural reaction is to save your life. whose life did taseer endanger by supporting asia bibi? supporting someone is not the same as yelling fire in the theater. yes, the end result in both was a stampede, but not all stampedes are created equal. in your initial example, that is a justified stampede because people's lives are in danger. that is an appropriate response. in this situation, this would be like someone sitting in the theater yelling "man it's hot in here" and then people concluding that if its hot there must be a fire and thus causing a stampede. in that instance, would you blame the person who said its hot or the theater goes for massively overreacting? hope you understand the difference. also hope you understand that just because someone is uneducated that doesn't excuse them of failure to use common sense because everyone is born with that quality.