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Old 10-16-2012, 08:25 PM
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Statistical analysis of Drone strike and terrorism.

Cyborg and some of our other members, please do read this entire article.

Did a drone attack Malala?

In his book ‘Inside Al Qaeda and the Taliban’, slain journalist Syed Saleem Shehzad who spent considerable part of his research with al Qaeda militants, described comprehensively the formation of the new al Qaeda players and their strategic objectives in the lawless FATA region of Pakistan after the crippling defeat of the Taliban and al Qaeda in 2001.

He magnificently illustrates this al Qaeda strategy in well-crafted 3 points:

The re-grouping of its militant structure and development of a battle strategy against the Pakistan Army and Nato Forces in Afghanistan
Conduct peace deals with the Pakistan Army and used the breathing space to strengthen its struggle against the United States
Extending the war into Pakistan, and from there strategising and launching the war from central Asian Republics to India for the sole purpose of defeating the Nato forces in Afghanistan.


In order to achieve this strategy, al Qaeda annihilated the centuries-old Pakistani tribal structure and traditions by killing thousands of tribal elders as well as clerics and launched a new generation of militants. However during this time Al Qaeda’s objectives were constantly under assault because mostly whenever a new leader was nominated and trained, he was eradicated by the formidable drone. This notorious drone is known to have successfully struck down not only the key al Qaeda and Taliban operatives but also fugitives responsible for hijacking of Pan American World Airways Flight 73 and 1998 United States Embassy Bombings.

According to The Bureau of Investigative Journalism, since the outset, there have been a total of 349 drone strikes in Pakistan to date, killing approximately 3300 people of which 500-800 are estimated to be civilians and this estimation has also been credited by the Stanford/NYU Clinics in ‘Living Under Drones’, a recent report heavily critical of the drones which was commissioned by London-based charity Reprieve that represents Guantanamo Bay prisoners .

In the following article I will critically analyze:

This report and in doing so uncover the lecturer at Islamic International University Islamabad (IIU) who has played a crucial role towards its findings.
The criticisms of drone strikes and its effectiveness in diminishing terrorist activities in Pakistan.

‘Living Under Drones’, the report prepared by researchers from Stanford and New York University law schools created mass hysteria in Pakistan after it revealed that drones terrorise civilians and are counter-productive. The print and electronic media along with cacophonic talk shows exploited this further to fuel the already mounting anti-Americanism and became an important tool in precipitating the hype surrounding the “Peace March” against drones organised by Imran Khan. However the report has various fundamental flaws which have been largely overlooked and which can raise grave concerns regarding its credibility.

Firstly this report cannot be considered impartial as claimed by Stanford/ NYU since their researchers were unable to directly access FATA to meet the affected victims due to the heavily guarded checkpoints established for security. Instead, they substantially relied on an Islamabad based Foundation for Fundamental Rights (FFR) for arranging interviews with drone strike victims. This created a conflict of interest between the FFR and the researchers, since FFR is a known legal advocate for drone victims in Pakistan. It would only be logical to presume that they would be inclined against the drones and would present evidence only to support their perspective and not of those residents who are in favor of it.

In addition to this, another issue which arises is what mechanism was adopted to ensure that the victims were really victims of drone strikes since there is a strong possibility that these victims were injured by other blasts such as those from F-16 and JF-17 used during Operation Rah-e-Nijat, which was launched by the Pakistan military in South Waziristan.

How do the victims ascertain that the strike they experienced or witnessed was actually from a drone rather than a PAF’s fighter air craft?

Moreover, the report mentions it faced a challenge in assessing the true opinions of the affectees who were reluctant speaking to foreigners about issues raised in this report from fear of vengeance from all quarters such as the Pakistani military, intelligence services, and the non-state armed groups.

Bearing this is mind, was there any process whereby the researchers ensured that the interviewees were not impacted by this same fear?

Secondly, FFR which facilitated this report is headed by Advocate Mirza Shahzad Akhbar, a practicing lawyer and lecturer at IIU who is known for his support of the Taliban. “Shahzad is a patriot and holds the United States entirely responsible for the menace in Pakistan” revealed an inside source from Shahzad’s employer, Farooq Law Associates, who spoke to me on condition of anonymity “He holds the Taliban as a legitimate resistance against the American imperialism.”

Most important of all, Shahzad is the same person who blew the cover of the CIA station chief, Jonathan Banks, in Pakistan in a press conference two years ago; it seems almost effortless the ease with which a mere practicing lawyer in Pakistan knows the identity of CIA’s station chief which is always a highly confidential information in any country. It is likely that elements within Pakistan’s security establishment were feeding Shahzad this information as he was working on an agenda provided by them.

If Shahzad’s concerns for the drone strike victims were truly so genuine he could have advised his clientele to sue the government of Pakistan and Armed Forces instead, since that is where the blame lies as they were facilitating these attacks in broad daylight by allowing Americans to use the Shamsi airbase until April 2011 to launch drone operations.

As it turns out this whole report boils down to the fact that it was prepared based on the information provided by the FFR and the only part played by the Stanford/NYU was more or less confined to designing and drafting of the report.

The timing of the release of this report cannot be dismissed either since Shahzad who helped assemble the data for the report also played a crucial role in managing Codepink activists who helped score a lot of attention internationally at the Peace March.

Coming to the second part of my analysis, the graphs below may be examined to assess the effectiveness and productivity of drone strikes:



The above graph illustrates the casualty breakdown of civilians and terrorists in drone strikes. The key point to note here is the outstanding decrease in civilian casualties in the last three years. The strikes increased dramatically after Barak Obama took office in 2009 but due to the adoption of remarkable precision levels and effective ground intelligence, the civilian casualty rate dropped to a mere 3 per cent by 2012.

Although even 3 per cent of civilian casualties are highly condemnable, this should not be seen in isolation, one must see the bigger picture and recognise the substantial impact of these strikes in reducing terror attacks in Pakistan which has inflicted thousands of casualties.

Here is some graphical data to support this viewpoint:


http://dawncompk.files.wordpress.com...pg?w=786&h=390


There are some key features that these two graphs represent.

Firstly, there is no evidence to support the popular mantra in Pakistan that drones fuel terrorist attacks. Contrary to popular beliefs, drone strikes have proved to be a crucial tool in reducing terrorism as can be seen from the graphs above. The year 2009 witnessed 54 drone strikes killing 570 terrorists and 150 civilians, versus 2010, where 122 strikes resulted in 900 terrorist and 74 civilian casualties. Nevertheless, 2009 was the deadliest year for Pakistan where 1,700 civilians died due to suicide attacks alone, along with other 1,600 casualties who were victims of ethnic violence, sectarian killings, accidental blasts and target killings. Furthermore, 2011 – 2012 experienced roughly the same levels of drone strikes as those of 2009 however, the difference is evident in the significant decrease in casualties from terrorist attacks of about 36 per cent to 55 per cent respectively. This correlation between drone strikes and terrorist casualties becomes more compelling when it comes to major cities in Pakistan where terrorist casualties have fallen by a marked 86 per cent by this year since 2009 despite the greater number of drone strikes in consequent years.

Looking at additional evidence, there are some ground realities which simply cannot be ignored and which strongly support drones as extremely effective against Pakistani suicide attacks. Between 2009 -2012, these strikes have caused severe damage to TTP and other Al Qaeda operatives who were assigned to destabilise Pakistan. Some top strategists, operational commanders, ideological mentors and recruiters were eliminated in these strikes.

These include:

Baitullah Mehsud: Top TTP leader who commanded up to 5,000 fighters and was responsible for killing thousands of Pakistanis in suicide attacks.

Tohir Yuldashev: Uzbek leader and ideological mentor of Baitullah Mehsud and Abdullah Mehsud who recruited up to 2,500 fighters in FATA and taught them brutal terror tactics to fight Pakistan army and Nato forces in Afghanistan.

Qari Hussain: Top TTP commander and organizer deadly suicide bombing squads which greatly facilitated Baitullah and Hakeemullah Mehsud. He played an instrumental role in executing TTP’s operational strategy.

Saeed al-Masri: Financial chief of Al Qaeda.

Qari Zafar: Leader of LeJ who carried out attacks on FIA offices in Lahore.

Ilyas Kashmiri: Al Qaeda’s top strategist and leader of 313 Brigade who not only planned to assassinate Pakistani General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani but also presented the idea of Mumbai attacks to al Qaeda in order to divert Pakistani forces from its western borders. The plan was later executed by former SSG Pakistan Army commando, Major Haroon Ashiq with operational support from Hafiz Saeed.

Full list of total top militant commanders killed in drone strikes can be found here.

The fierce drone campaign against TTP and other fighters have greatly benefited Pakistan as it has caused leadership and strategic crisis among terrorists, depriving them of strategists, plotters, and fighters that eventually resulted in massive overall reduction of suicide attacks in Pakistan.

Although there has been a recent rise in sectarian killings of Shias particularly the Hazara community in Pakistan, this sectarian cleansing campaign has different dynamics and contexts which are explained in my recent article Hazara Holocaust and the Deafening Pakistani Silence.

In the end, it turns out that drones do not fuel terrorism in Pakistan as promoted by the local media, Imran Khan and other political leaders who thrive on anti-Americanism and spread lies by showing sham and bogus pictures of drone victims. The criticism against drone strikes by Stanford/NYU report is totally baseless since it was not a fact finding commission but instead a fall semester university project that relied for key information on partisan characters like Mirza Shahzad Akbar.

What fuels terrorism in Pakistan is its dubious policy against Taliban and the peace deals that it signed with the terrorists post 9/11. These peace deals ended up giving much needed breathing space to terrorists who have been exploiting these to their advantage to launch attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The peace agreements have been so ill-conceived that they did not even provide basic provisions against cross border infiltration of militants or the compulsory surrender of weapons.

Despite this aggressive supporters of these agreements such as Imran Khan continue to deceive the public by calling it the solution against terrorism and by linking it to the Northern Ireland peace process (Belfast Agreement). What these people fail to tell the public is that this peace process was only made possible after the successful process of “Decommissioning” where an Independent International Commission was formed in order to supervise the surrender of weapons by Irish Republican Army. One can never expect Taliban and al Qaeda to adopt “Decommissioning” since their ideology and struggle is religiously motivated unlike the IRA conflict.

Since the agenda of Taliban/al Qaeda is to forcefully implement their puritanical sharia and exploit peace deals to regain strategic strength, Pakistan has no option other than to declare an all-out war against them. However the drone technology is only viable as a short term solution because the war in Pakistan is an ideological one and winning it in the long run means ensuring against the rise of future terrorists by creating and promoting a counter ideology. Until then it seems, the drones are here to stay.

It’s about time Pakistan wakes up to the strategic advantages of drone strikes and identify its role in curtailing terrorism instead of choosing to selectively criticize them whenever “Good Taliban” are targeted- who continue to send fighters in Afghanistan to fight Nato troops such as Hafiz Gul Bahadur, Maulvi Nazir and Haqqani Network.

Pakistan, being a vital non-Nato ally, must treat all Taliban as one, while allowing these strikes unabated, and stop decrying sovereignty issues because sovereignty, if Pakistan still has one, is foremost being violated by Taliban and Al Qaeda.

As a banner during a protest aptly portrays ‘Drones kill, so Malala can live’. This should be Pakistan’s philosophy in order to avoid future incidents which aim at crushing the very spirit of Pakistan by targeting a 14-year-old beacon of light, Malala Yousufzai.

References:
Syed Saleem Shahzad 2011, Inside Al-Qaeda and the Taliban: Beyond Bin Laden and 9/11
Pakistan Datasheet - List
Pakistan drone statistics visualised: TBIJ
Obama 2012 Pakistan strikes: TBIJ
http://livingunderdrones.org/wp-cont...DER_DRONES.pdf
Reprieve
Inside Al-Qaeda and the Taliban: Beyond Bin Laden and 9/11: Amazon.co.uk: Syed Saleem Shahzad: Books Inside Al-Qaeda and the Taliban: Beyond Bin Laden and 9/11: Amazon.co.uk: Syed Saleem Shahzad: Books
CODEPINK*-*:*-*Pakistan Peace Delegation - FAQs

*Note: The graph “Blast Casualties in Major Cities vs Drone Strikes” has taken Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi, Islamabad and Peshawar into consideration.

Did a drone attack Malala? | DAWN.COM
---------------------------------------------------------------
I do not agree with certain points of the article,but it is a very strong article. Worth taking into consideration when talking about drone strikes and their effectiveness.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:04 PM
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Dude your propaganda is baseless, no matter what you say you can't justify drone attacks. Your attempts make u a hypocrite, you are trying ur best to justify drone attacks and then have balls to criticize ppl who justify TTP. The above article was debunked by so many that its not even worth citing links. Here is something for you to read and understand:

1 - U.S. Drone Policy: Standing Near Terrorists Makes You A Terrorist

2 - Drone attacks in Pakistan are counterproductive, says report | World news | The Guardian

This is the problem a wrong is wrong, no matter who does this. TTP and ilk are wrong there can't be any justification for that, same way what US been doing in name of WOT is wrong there can't be any justification for that. If you can't agree with this than there is no difference between you and TTP/Alqaeda both wants to implement thier own ideologies on gun point and both can go fuck themselves.

Pakistan should get out of WOT, its fucking pathetic to blame pakistan for the sheer incompetence of USA. I can cite examples after examples of US blind stupidity but will mention one prime example. Gen. Rashid Dostum. If he can be US allies and darling of west then plz stop lecturing us about how we should behave, it was and is in interest of NATO and US to be buddy with ppl like Dostum, then it is perfectly fine for Pak to be buddy with with some unsavory characters for our interests.

The problem with guys like you is that you have no sense of history, perspective and realities on ground. Pak army been in FATA fighting for last 8 yrs so pray tell me sending more army is gonna resolve what? Most of TTP command is sitting in Afghanistan while US is in dialogues with Afghan Talibaan since last 4 yrs. Mullah Badar was arrested by ISI and Pak got flak for that.

As per Leon Panetta himself there may be, may be no more then 100 Alqaeda members in afghanistan and pakistan yet we have to pay the price while US sits back and enjoy the security. 1st it was only tribal areas, then K-P province, then punjab, now baluchistan and now reports of terrorist attacks planned in sindh. So pray tell me after 11 fucking yrs of this WOT have we made a dent? The problem for pakistan keep getting worst our ppl keep getting killed not americans. The defination of insanity is keep doing same thing over and over and you want us to do more of same to what end?
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:52 PM
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yes let's pull out of fata. while we are at it, let's build safehouse for ttp to operate in isb, khi, lhr and across pakistan. let's invite them to the gov't why don't we! what a joke. yes drones are wrong, but ttp needs to be destroyed. quit trying to defend the indefensible!
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by adil_909 View Post
yes let's pull out of fata. while we are at it, let's build safehouse for ttp to operate in isb, khi, lhr and across pakistan. let's invite them to the gov't why don't we! what a joke. yes drones are wrong, but ttp needs to be destroyed. quit trying to defend the indefensible!
don't get ur panty in a twist, stop being a moron and come up with solutions, so tell me what 8 yrs of fighting has give us? what is ur solution more troops? More fighting? More drones? Tell us instead of just accusing ppl who don't agree with you of being TTP sympathizers. Otherwise STFU
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:26 PM
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don't get ur panty in a twist, stop being a moron and come up with solutions, so tell me what 8 yrs of fighting has give us? what is ur solution more troops? More fighting? More drones? Tell us instead of just accusing ppl who don't agree with you of being TTP sympathizers. Otherwise STFU
SO if you have already assumed our plan, why don't you tell us yours?
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:45 PM
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SO if you have already assumed our plan, why don't you tell us yours?
*bangs his head against the wall* abay what else i been doing in so many other threads? Been presenting my ideas with citation and all m getting is TTP and rightwongers and all the crap. Will try once more.

1st few basic things that one has to understand.

1 - No group whatever thier greivences legit or otherwise should be allowed to pick up arm and challenge state.

2 - There can't be any dialogue with TTP. Plz not I have been consistent on mentioning TTP led by Hakimullah Mehsud and Mullah Fazal, there are others like mangal bagh.
3 - No group have any right to implement any system on the point of gun, anyone who cites Quran and sunnah is wrong on this account.
4 - TTP is wrong on basis of many quranic ayahs and hadiths will quote two quran verses to support my agument (paraphrasing)

a) And invite them toward Allah's path with wisdom and kindness.
b) And when they are asked not to do "fitna" they say we are doing Islah. What TTP/alqaeda doing is fitna in name of islah.

Now lets talk about what to be done.

1 - We gotta get out of WOT, that means no drone, no part of afghan internal problems.

2 - Shotgun approach of military operations have clearly failed, we have used force and while we succeeded in some areas we failed in others.

3 - The major cause is army able to clear out the area but civilian failure to re-establish writ. I presents swat after successful army operation 2 yrs on the area still under Army control without civilian govt.

4 - The need is to revisit the military strategy, develop indeginious lashkar, tribal ppl are not weak or coward they will fight, but back them with money and arms, train them and use tribal connections and money to break and exploit the factions already in the TTP.

5 - Cut of retreat routes into afghanistan, since NATO is unable/unwilling to control these mofos from coming over from afghanistan we gotta use the durand line unclear demarcation to our benefit. Plz note am not saying invade afghanistan just in hot pursuit some good trageted shelling *wink wink*.

The shotgun and just send army approach hasnt worked and will not work no matter how much more you put, gotta get the locals on our side and use targetted operations. But we hvae to do it i.e Pak state so we can say we are doing it on our own cuz these are our enemies.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:55 PM
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don't get ur panty in a twist, stop being a moron and come up with solutions, so tell me what 8 yrs of fighting has give us? what is ur solution more troops? More fighting? More drones? Tell us instead of just accusing ppl who don't agree with you of being TTP sympathizers. Otherwise STFU
What fighting? there have been half assed operations when we should have gone for the whole of waziristan in one go. The mentality of the talibapakis has to change or continue to live a miserable life forever.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:58 PM
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What fighting? there have been half assed operations when we should have gone for the whole of waziristan in one go. The mentality of the talibapakis has to change or continue to live a miserable life forever.
We did in swat we went whole thing and we cleared it and we back to square one, we did same in south waziristan and we back to square one. Thats what we did and my qts is doing it since swat and south still not secured and cleared going with same in north gonna accomplish what?

NATO went full in Afghanistan so why they are now confined only to bases?
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by adil_909 View Post
yes let's pull out of fata. while we are at it, let's build safehouse for ttp to operate in isb, khi, lhr and across pakistan. let's invite them to the gov't why don't we! what a joke. yes drones are wrong, but ttp needs to be destroyed. quit trying to defend the indefensible!

Cannot believe how you always pull a Rabit out of you ASS!!
Yes Destroy everything that will surely bring peace to Pakistan....
AND how exactly are we going to separate TTP from all the other Goons that are walking Freely in our streets from MQM to JUI everyone Does the something some Do it for Money other for HEAVEN.....Someone had said here before.....
you can Bomb the world to pieces but cannot Bomb them to Peace.
Please stop opening your mouth cause all comes out of that is Hate and Filth.....And then i have to Dose you in your Language to get you Quite.....ow just threat me, Ban me or just Remove the comment like you always DO!!¦
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cyborg909 View Post
*bangs his head against the wall* abay what else i been doing in so many other threads? Been presenting my ideas with citation and all m getting is TTP and rightwongers and all the crap. Will try once more.

1st few basic things that one has to understand.

1 - No group whatever thier greivences legit or otherwise should be allowed to pick up arm and challenge state. Tell that to them!

2 - There can't be any dialogue with TTP. Plz not I have been consistent on mentioning TTP led by Hakimullah Mehsud and Mullah Fazal, there are others like mangal bagh.
3 - No group have any right to implement any system on the point of gun, anyone who cites Quran and sunnah is wrong on this account.
4 - TTP is wrong on basis of many quranic ayahs and hadiths will quote two quran verses to support my agument (paraphrasing)

a) And invite them toward Allah's path with wisdom and kindness.
b) And when they are asked not to do "fitna" they say we are doing Islah. What TTP/alqaeda doing is fitna in name of islah.

Now lets talk about what to be done.

1 - We gotta get out of WOT, that means no drone, no part of afghan internal problems.

2 - Shotgun approach of military operations have clearly failed, we have used force and while we succeeded in some areas we failed in others.

3 - The major cause is army able to clear out the area but civilian failure to re-establish writ. I presents swat after successful army operation 2 yrs on the area still under Army control without civilian govt.

4 - The need is to revisit the military strategy, develop indeginious lashkar, tribal ppl are not weak or coward they will fight, but back them with money and arms, train them and use tribal connections and money to break and exploit the factions already in the TTP.

So you'r idea is to use mercenaries like we did back iin the Russia-Afghan days, and hope that they don't turn on us again. Let's asuume we somehow we have planned to control the guys we are giving the guns to, but we are still using civilian mercenaries, that are no match for the Taliban no matter what you think and somehow their death will be more honorable then dying in a drone strikes, one way or other we are condemning these people to die. And you think that they will risk their lifes and unite(all the lashkars) and go on the offensive rather then stay in their respective tribal areas and defend it. while the taliban (even if they are defeated in one attack) will go back and regroup. And somehow you think the lashkars will somehow be able to do,what our army(wheater full operation or not) has not been all to do. Do you see you fallacies.
You want them to put down their guns while backing your military out, and hoping that somehow they will be scared some llashkar that are backed by the military. Well you are definitely under estimating the guys who attacked our GHQ.


5 - Cut of retreat routes into afghanistan, since NATO its unable/unwilling to control these mofos from coming over from afghanistan we gotta use the durand line unclear demarcation to our benefit. Plz note am not saying invade afghanistan just in hot pursuit some good trageted shelling *wink wink*.

The shotgun and just send army approach hasnt worked and will not work no matter how much more you put, gotta get the locals on our side and use get the locals on our side and use targetted operations. But we hvae to do it i.e Pak state so we can say we are doing it on our own cuz these are our enemies.
Don't underestimate. Did you read the report up there fully?
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:03 AM
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Don't underestimate. Did you read the report up there fully?
Seriously you got to start reading and comprehending what someone saying befor opening your mouth.

Once again the so called report u posted have been fully debunked i gave u two other more credible reports. Once again there is no justification for drone attacks and anyone who justifies them is same as TTP/Alqaeda.

2nd The laskhars are common things in tribal areas, heck they even common in sindh and baluchistan so its nothing novel. Also we already have aman lashkars working with Pak army. So saying it can't be done is false and saying there is danger of armed groups is patently naive cuz they already are armed without any help from state.

Lastly the lashkar will be local tribes man and all we doing is moving in concert with them. Backed by Pak army and engaging them to be partnered with us then to leave them on mercy of TTP and allowing them to be either defeated or joined forces with TTP to fight against us because this way they get some respite.

At no point I said anywhere remove the armed forces, I said the current strategy is not working and we need to change the strategy. So try reading then comprehending then and only then post ur reply.

Now that I have explained do you have enough courage to clearly state what you think should be done? I am eagerly waiting for you to post what you think should be the plan?

Oh btw regarding ur snarky comment "tell that to them" I don't have to fucking tell them anything they have been told that several times. Its not abt telling them its the fucking principal of things the same principal applies to all armed groups like BLA, MQM and Sindhu desh
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